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Name: Moacir P. de Sá Pereira
Nickname: moacir
Member since: 2008-08-29 21:42:23
Website URL: http://home.uchicago.edu/~moacir
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If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

May 27th, 2010 at 11:30 am

Excellent news, and good to know about the ITS, though Ii wonder who exactly the apostille-granting entity is. Germany?

Also, it’s not the Consulate that makes the final decision, so they can’t really dictate what they will or will not accept. They can just warn that certain things might run into trouble down the road.

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

March 4th, 2010 at 4:14 am

Kestai, I would recommend that you do a search for “loophole” on this site. I don’t describe the legal basis in this post, but I do elsewhere.

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

February 17th, 2010 at 2:57 pm

Joshua,

I’ve covered the specifics of who can get Lithuanian citizenship while not relinquishing their other citizenship. Your specific family’s history will determine your case. Argentina, the US, Canada–for the time being, all those nations are treated the same, all or nothing.

Costs I’ve detailed elsewhere, though I have no idea what translation would add. I imagine there’s some kind of per-page rate that translators charge, and I know that it’s easy to find those kinds of services on the internet. I have, however, no specific recommendations at this time.

It’s not entirely clear if a person has to go in person to the Consulate/Embassy, and I certainly don’t know what the rules would be for a Garbės Konsulas, like what you have in Argentina. I would bet that going to a real consulate would be better.

Finally, you probably don’t need to know any Lithuanian. There are only two forms to fill out (for the petition and for the passport), and they are both rather straightforward (and may even have english on them). You’ll just take up the time of the consular officer who has to go through the forms with you.

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

February 14th, 2010 at 12:40 pm

Karl,

Thanks for the update. I relied on photocopies for some of my documentation, too–especially the documents from Germany and the documents from the Lithuanian Archives.

The issue is that for birth certificates, etc., a notarized copy won’t suffice. In the US, you need to provide an apostille, and, from my understanding, an apostille can’t be affixed to a copy.

We’re in agreement, though, that the main thing is to legalize everything appropriately. I’ve found that it’s not worth half-assing things, and getting originals when possible. I do not suspect it adds much to the cost, and the peace of mind is invaluable.

I did include, btw, notarized copies of my mother’s birth certificate (from Manitoba), but the consulate tossed them out. Without her certificate legalized by Ottawa, I think I would have been out of luck.

Current Lithuanian citizenship law deadline extended

February 9th, 2010 at 3:10 am

OK, I think this is confusion I’ve started. *I* *personally* *wish* that the clock would be pulled back, but, from what I can recall, I’ve not read anything suggesting that, at least for dual citizenship. Of course, as you know, the clock has already been pulled back for single citizenship.

The bulk of the pressure now is to allow people who left *since* 1990 to keep their Lithuanian citizenship. That’s why requirements like “NATO nation” and “EU nation” keep coming up, as they are both sets of states that Lithuanians have been emigrating to since 1990.

Given that the current law considers as citizens everyone who is a descendant of a citizen of the first republic, it would follow that that should make up the pool of potential candidates for dual citizenship, even though that would go against the “rare” requirement in the constitution (as would, I would argue, expanding it in the other direction). So while it would make sense, and while it would be what I want, I’ve not actually, from what little I’ve read, seen anything suggesting that it will.

Current Lithuanian citizenship law deadline extended

February 8th, 2010 at 6:52 am

Bronwyn,

I honestly don’t have any sort of insider information, nor do I particularly feel like I can gauge trends. I do feel, however, that the Lithuanian government is trying to figure out how to make dual citizenship available to more, rather than to fewer, people. They are under tremendous pressure from Lithuanians living abroad–this has turned PLB almost into a single-issue organization!

But while that may sound like good news, what is keeping the pressure from throwing the doors of dual citizenship wide open is precisely the business I called “crypto-racist” above. I do believe that the same sources of pressure to open dual citizenship to people who have acquired citizenship in a NATO nation are also sources that are disinclined to advocate for the rights of descendents of citizens who left before 1940–that is to say, they might not advocate for, as an example, the descendents of Jewish citizens who fled the increasingly toxic atmosphere in late Smetona-era Lithuania.

In other words, because the current efforts to widen dual citizenship are done in an effort to maintain the ethnic Lithuanian hegemony over the state, means of widening the citizenship to increase the likelihood of non-ethnic Lithuanians’ gaining dual citizenship seem to find less favor in the halls of power.

So whether your specific family is ethnically Lithuanian or not, because pulling the clock back to 1918 would dilute the concentration of ethnic Lithuanians in the pool of eligible dual citizens, your chances seem slim for the forseeable future.

That’s how I read the pressure for changing the dual citizenship law when I try to read between the lines.

The Roadmap to Dual Citizenship, a HOWTO

December 4th, 2009 at 7:01 am

Maya, your situation seems to sound more complex than it actually is. If your great grandparents were already living in Lithuania in 1918, or were born there afterwards, then they were Lithuanian citizens. There will hopefully be records suggesting this in the Lithuanian Archives: school reports and the like.

Assuming your great-grandmother was still a Lithuanian citizen upon return to Lithuania in 1938 and kept her Lithuanian citizenship until fleeing to the USSR after 15 June 1940, then she *should* qualify as a Citizen 0, which would make you eligible for Lithuanian citizenship regardless of what citizenship your grandmother and parents have.

In other words, your family’s flight during the early- and mid-30s should not actually alter your eligibility, I don’t think, since they returned!

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

November 22nd, 2009 at 8:13 am

Sean, you’re asking the dirty secret of the dual citizenship game.

From my understanding, if one doesn’t qualify for the above business with citizen 0 and the like, one must surrender his or her (US, let’s say) passport to the Lithuanian government upon receiving the Lithuanian passport. There’s nothing here: http://www.konsulatas.org/LR%2.....etybe.html about requiring a Certificate of Loss of Nationality. (Cecil Adams on renouncing citizenship: http://www.straightdope.com/co.....itizenship )

If that’s the case, what’s to stop me from doing that, turning around, and walking to a State Department building (or US Embassy) and declaring my passport lost/stolen and getting a new one based on my birth certificate? (I don’t recommend trying this, as life after you’ve declared a passport stolen/lost becomes a security nightmare, friends who’ve had it happen to them tell me.)

I could be wrong–the Lithuanian government could require more rigid proof of renouncing–but I’m skeptical. (The opposite, I’ve been told, is not uncommon among new immigrants: they arrive in the US/Canada, fulfill their residency requirements, naturalize, and just don’t bother telling the Lithuanian government. The idea is that by the time they have to choose, all this dual citizenship silliness will be solved in their favor.)

As for your specific situation, I have no idea how these rules apply in cases like yours–as a comparison, a friend of mine applied for dual citizenship before the new rules came down, though she’d still be eligible under the new rules, and was wondering about her kids–born since 1991. I suspect that they are eligible, too, as their eligible regardless of their mother’s citizenship (they are greatgrandchildren of a Citizen 0). But in your case, there is no Citizen 0, so I don’t think that would work.

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

November 17th, 2009 at 12:05 am

Victoria,

The process is structurally no different. It’s all in the details. The main difference is that Canada does not issue apostilles, so all your Canadian documents will have to be authenticated in Ottawa. The authentication process permanently alters the documents, so I would get new versions of all the relevant documents (your birth certificate, your parent’s birth certificate, and any immigration documents).

Authentication also adds costs (at least it did in Chicago) on the Lithuanian side of things.

In the post above, I have a paragraph on authentication here: http://www.lithchat.com/iseivi.....entication

Getting new versions of immigration papers for Canadians is explained here: http://www.lithchat.com/iseivi.....uania.html

There is a garbės konsulas in LN, but I suspect they are unequipped to provide consular services of this sort. This, coupled with the fact that Ottawa will authenticate up to ten documents while you wait, makes me recommend taking a day trip up there, stopping off for authentication first thing, and then taking the pile of documents to the Lithuanian Embassy. This is why I suspect authentication on the Lithuanian side might not cost you extra, though it cost me: the embassy in Ottawa is used to seeing authenticated Canadian documents.

Finally, the Canadian version of the citizenship law:

http://www.ca.mfa.lt/index.php?-1108295122

Apostille and Federal documents

October 13th, 2009 at 7:13 am

Karl,

This is kind of a fascinating problem to have. First, know that if you get that handwritten certificate authenticated, from my understanding, that means you’ll forfeit it to the Lithuanian government when you make your application. Instead, you should get a new certificate for your father. To do this, I would talk to the German government. They’d be the first step.

I’m not sure if a birth certificate is even *necessary*. There are other ways to demonstrate paternity, etc.

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

October 12th, 2009 at 5:57 am

Karl,

The archives will do all the digging for you, if you can provide a name, birthdate, and birthplace. If you’ve not even got that, then they might be able to work with you.

As for the language, that’s going to probably cost you $. First, every document you submit (except for apostille certificates) will have to be translated into Lithuanian. I recommend getting a pro to do that even for people who grew up speaking Lithuanian at home!

Whatever you receive from the archives you should scan/photocopy for your own records and then resubmit. It doesn’t matter if you can’t understand the documents beyond basically what they are (most likely school and armed services records, at least based on my experience). The results will either suffice or not–no amount of language expertise on your part will help that.

Here are some basic instructions from the Archives, in English:

http://www.archyvai.lt/archyva.....pathId=342

Finally, there are some forms that need to be filled out, but you can conceivably do that at the consulate by hand with help from the consular staff, though I’d call ahead and maybe schedule an appointment. I DO NOT KNOW if this is a service they provide, but it seems reasonable to expect it (by US standards).

Elsewhere on this site I’ve provided links to lithuanian-english dictionaries, etc. For something as basic as filling out a form, using that should suffice.

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

October 7th, 2009 at 10:26 am

I’m not a lawyer, but it seems that the government only taxes income earned in Lithuania or paid by a Lithuanian entity. Those are also the only kinds of income that are taxed for membership in Sodras, the Lithuanian Social Security / health system. So despite being a citizen, I am not enrolled in their health care system.

What the future holds, I do not know.

The Roadmap to Dual Citizenship, a HOWTO

October 2nd, 2009 at 4:48 pm

Serge, the claim based solely on ethnic grounds, I suspect, has no standing anymore, unless you live in an ethnic homeland of Lithuanians (like far northeastern Poland).

Joe, if your ancestors left before 1940, you’re eligible for citizenship. You will, however, have to surrender your US passport.

Please see:

http://www.ltconsny.org/EN/Citizenship.htm

The Roadmap to Dual Citizenship, a HOWTO

September 27th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

Phil,

I know that Lithuanian citizenship was granted in the first republic based on residency at the time of independence. In that case, I would suspect that your grandparents did not get Lithuanian citizenship, because they were already in the US. There may have been some means of acquiring Lithuanian citizenship for people who left before independence, but I know it wasn’t automatically granted. As a result, I don’t think the chances look good for your situation, but I would not present myself as the final authority.

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

September 5th, 2009 at 3:38 am

As the ITS stuff is not provided by a government, there is no sort of authentication process, I don’t think. I translated the relevant parts (they’re lists, so I didn’t translate every name, occupation, etc.) and included them along with the letter from the ITS (also translated, I think). The ITS letter has a case number on it, so the government could always fact check with the ITS directly, to make sure I didn’t forge the photocopies.

Whether that will work for something found via ancestry.com, though, I don’t know.

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

August 20th, 2009 at 11:37 pm

Laura, I know nothing about a new law, but I suspect that it will not be more strict.

There was no oath or language test because, as Jüri surmised, by following this path one doesn’t *become* a Lithuanian citizen. They always were one. They just exercise their right to citizenship.

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

August 10th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

@Niarchos and @Colin,

If your “Citizen 0″ left before 1940, then (for now), you’re likely out of luck for dual citizenship, though regular citizenship remains available. I’ve argued against this position repeatedly, largely since it excludes many who left Lithuania in the 1930s as it was slowly falling under noxious nazi influence, but the laws are as they are at this time.

The hammer and sickle is NOT the swastika

July 31st, 2009 at 1:47 pm

Just in case, in this post and throughout, my references to the swastika are metonymic.

If you read only one post about Lithuanian dual citizenship...

July 30th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

That’s right, Jüri. It’s something I personally didn’t consider until, having picked up my passport, I realized that there was no oath, no nothing. I was always a citizen of Lithuania, since the day I was born. What this process enables is for me to exercise and reserve my right to that citizenship.

But the process certainly makes me feel like I’m “becoming” a citizen after not being one before. But you’re absolutely right–this is not a process of naturalization.

Penultimate "Guide to a Passport" post

July 8th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

Jasmine, it ended up being about $166. We’ll see if there are any other fees incurred. It’s too bad I couldn’t have gotten my passport before my trip to Lithuania–my bank account out there is holding about $100 hostage (a required min bal for non-citizens).

Yes, PLB is lying to you

May 25th, 2009 at 7:46 am

You can look at what I’ve collected here:

http://www.lithchat.com/tag/guide-to-a-passport

I’m not an immigration lawyer, but it strikes me that you would be eligible for citizenship, based on what you have told me. The same would hold for your daughter. In order to obtain dual citizenship, however, you would have to prove that your father left Lithuania before 1990. That shouldn’t be difficult, but it’s an additional step.

Unexpected proof of post-1940 flight from Lithuania

April 22nd, 2009 at 11:08 pm

Haha… I just looked at yr email address. Alio, vadove…

ITS won’t send anything legalized, at least they didn’t to me. Considering how disinterested the consul was in what I brought in to show the post-1940 leaving, I think you’re best off with:

1. Your BC w/ apostille

2. Your mom’s naturalization papers into the US w/ (fed) apostille. Assuming she’s still alive, you can have her do a FOIA search on herself and request the documents. Then you need to legalize them. That will possibly take up to two months, however.

3. Your mom’s BC. If she was born in LT before 1940, get it from the Archyvai and you’re gold with just that. If she was born after 1940, you’ll need to then prove that her parents were LT citizens before 1940–which you can also do via the Archyvai.

Of course, if your mom was a citizen of LT before 1940, nearly anything imaginable that proves that she was living in the US before 1990 will go–though, unfortunately, that might not include your birth certificate. Anything attesting to citizenship in the US, though, would be great. Naturalization papers would be best.

Finally, talk to your consulatas–Vytautas in Chicago was very very useful for me.

Unexpected proof of post-1940 flight from Lithuania

April 22nd, 2009 at 10:21 pm

They photocopied my passport at the consulate. They don’t keep it. They also don’t, I suspect, care about it. You’re born in Ohio–that’s proof of US citizenship. The passport just proves you are who you say you are when you submit the application. If you’re not submitting in person, I suppose you could get a copy of your passport notarized and sent along. Getting the Lithuanian passport, however, may involve an in-person visit.

At the federal level, apostilles are available from the Dept. of Authentication–I discussed that in an earlier post and linked to this:

http://www.netherlands-embassy.....00001778EN

They do a good job of explaining the process of getting an apostille for a federal document. Again, though, your passport probably doesn’t need it!

Proving flight from Soviet-Occupied Lithuania

March 17th, 2009 at 8:31 am

That’s great news. How did you do all the translating? Your family or pros?

Six to eight weeks is an excellent time frame. I’m literally just waiting for my grandfather’s death certificate to come in the mail. Then I’m straight off to the consul.

The Roadmap to Dual Citizenship, a HOWTO

February 28th, 2009 at 11:01 am

VB,

I’m going to get to your more substantive questions about a referendum in a later post, but there’s a bit of a mixup in your historical narrative. When you applied in 2006, there was no “fled … post 1940″ requirement. Dual citizenship was granted widely, at least potentially.

In 2006, all dual citizenship was stopped, save if the president gave it to you.

The president can’t veto what the KT decides. Instead what happened is that the KT said that the rules for dual citizenship have to be such that it is rare and unusual. Seimas drew up a law that would restrict dual citizenship in 2008, while making it available again, thinking that this would satisfy the KT’s demands (this is as yet untested). The bill included granting dual citizenship to all citizens who acquire other EU citizenship, etc., and cast a pretty wide net.

*This bill* that Seimas passed was what Adamkus vetoed. See: http://www.lithchat.com/cultur.....again.html

However, what I only learned recently was that Adamkus vetoed merely parts of the bill, and the part that granted dual citizenship to the “fled … post 1940″ crowd was untouched. Hence it is, for the time being, the law of the land.

The KT, of course, can strike down the current law (or the new one that was just proposed), which is why many people, myself included, feel that the only way to ensure access to dual citizenship is via constitutional referendum (once we’re citizens, it’s a safe bet that citizenship won’t be taken away, so it’s solidifying the access that’s important).